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 Recommendations for a Strategy Version.

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Ehic
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PostSubject: Re: Recommendations for a Strategy Version.   Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:04 pm

Sorry but i don't understand your abbreviating, please explain?

I want redesign the curent game so that it's no longer a slash and heal, is fairly more difficult, and so you have to make choices (no more just buy the newest weapons and use the most recent djinn). I want the player to actually think ahead and have a plan especially for bosses.
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PostSubject: Re: Recommendations for a Strategy Version.   Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:14 pm

SRPG is a Strategy Role Playing Game. They're games like Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, Tactics Ogre, Luminous Arc, Disgaea, etc..., and typically use an Isometric grid for the placement of combat units/characters...

Otherwise, there's nothing about it that involves "Strategy". If you're not going that route, then what you're speaking about isn't adding strategy, it's rebalancing the game's system, which we're all doing.

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PostSubject: Re: Recommendations for a Strategy Version.   Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:52 pm

By strategy I meant make it so that not all bosses can be easily beaten by attack and heal, unless the player decides to level grind. Similar to dragon quest 8 where the game could be beaten with hack and heal but only if you farily over leveled, but at level or below level would require planning like exploiting a boss with abnormally high HP and low luck by using poison then just defend and heal till it kills itself.
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PostSubject: Re: Recommendations for a Strategy Version.   Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:07 am

You could make a boss with abnormally high Defence and immunity to Psynergy, and also abnormally low HP, so that summons don't work, most Djinn don't work, and Psynergy doesn't work, but also give the boss low luck, and high Attack, so that Djinn like Mold and status effects are especially dangerous.
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PostSubject: Re: Recommendations for a Strategy Version.   Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:34 am

Actually, that's just a basic rebalanced game... Not so much strategy, as balanced gameplay.

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PostSubject: Re: Recommendations for a Strategy Version.   Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:48 pm

Ok, thanks for help.

Class rebalancing (up to lvl 54, normal equipment): What Class lines do you believe are (over/under)powered, why, and how can that be fixed?

ie. Ninja: Has extremely high attack and agility while all other stats are above average. Has an EPA that hits three targets and an another EPA that can stun. Can be fixed by lowering attack to good from very good and defence from good to average.
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PostSubject: Re: Recommendations for a Strategy Version.   Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:55 pm

The Jupiter base class is so pathetic. They seriously need to have better stats and Psynergies.

I was thinking, maybe the electrical based Jupiter psynergies could have a paralyzing effect to them?... That would make them far more useful.

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PostSubject: Re: Recommendations for a Strategy Version.   Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:30 pm

Oh yeah, I like that idea. However, I would not do this to Plasma (or Thunderclap) series. The Ray and Bolt series would be neat though.

Also...

Have a nice day.
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PostSubject: Re: Recommendations for a Strategy Version.   Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:51 am

But, if psynergies get a side effect like stun than they have to be weakened otherwise you can simply spam, for example, destruct ray over and over and the enemies will always be stunned.
And didn't Jamie already give the idea of adding status effect to psynergies?
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PostSubject: Re: Recommendations for a Strategy Version.   Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:17 am

Well perhaps you give the psynergies a 10% chance of stun... wait, that's possible right?

Besides most of the electrical based psynergies are already extremely weak.
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PostSubject: Re: Recommendations for a Strategy Version.   Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:27 am

Nope. It's not possible to giva an exact % to inflict stun/poison/etc. You can only set it to "May cause Stun". I guess it depends on the enemy's and/or caster's Luck only.
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PostSubject: Re: Recommendations for a Strategy Version.   Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:23 pm

Different attacks have different chances of causing stun. Want a high chance? Set it to the same effect as Paralyze. Want a lower chance? Then go find some other move.

We can set it to have the same chance as any move that already has it. But, we can't add our own chance or view the exact chance of it working.
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PostSubject: Re: Recommendations for a Strategy Version.   Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:20 pm

I been working on a way to balance damage/stauts hybrid psynergy, What other classes are unbalanced? Opinions on warlock being improved, also I'm looking into making mage multi element classes into fighter classes for Piers and in some cases Ivan. What classes do you think that could work for?
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PostSubject: Re: Recommendations for a Strategy Version.   Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:55 pm

The Mysterious Card classes are underpowered, but I will get back to you, when I re-check how bad they were
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PostSubject: Re: Recommendations for a Strategy Version.   Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:57 pm

Personally, I think that Base classes should have more powerful psynergy, while the more mixed you get with djinn, the more the focus is on stats instead.

Basically, base classes are pure-psynergy oriented, meaning great EPAs for fighters, great base damage for mages.

Dual-element classes are a mix of the two. Not as good of stats as tri-element, not as good of psynergy as base-class, but a healthy balance of the two.

Tri-element classes are more of a stat-focus. They have psynergy to back them up, but it's not their primary means of damage, so it's kind of sub-par in comparison to other classes. They make up for it by having the best overall stats, though.

The game TRIES to do this, but doesn't do it well enough... The Ninja class has not only the best stats in the game, but three of the best psynergies as well - Shurriken, Thunderhead, and Annihilation.


One way you can fix this is to have a 'staggered upgrade' system. Basically, for attack spells in base classes, you'll learn spells like gaia without needing 4 djinn. However, after you class up twice, the weaker stages get replaced with stronger versions that are learned at later levels.

For example, in Squire class, Quake is replaced by Tremor at Gallant. It has the same range and animation as quake, but the power is one stage up from Quake Sphere, as is the level you learn it. At Lord, Earthquake is replaced by High Tremor. Again, it's got the same range and animation as Earthquake, but the power and level learned are one step up from Tremor. At Slayer, Quake Sphere is replaced by Grand Tremor, which has the same range and... well, you get the pattern.

This will keep adepts learning spells even beyond level 54, which is VERY helpful in terms of keeping psynergy balanced with unleashes.

This works with EPAs, too. Ragnarok is learned as norm, and Odyssey is learned at twice the level, though rather than replacing Ragnarok, it just requires that you're Knight or higher. At Gallant, Ragnarok is replaced by Laevateinn, which uses the same animation, but is stronger and learned at a higher level. At Lord, Odyssey is replaced... by, let's say... Iliad or something. I'm sure you can come up with something better, as I'm drawing a blank. Again, stronger, same animation, just learned at a higher level.

If you remember to pace your djinn right, it'll work perfectly for the "expected level". If they're doing a LLG, then they're probably not gonna be using psynergy much anyways...


For Dual-element classes, they only go up to the second stage of replacement. The 4, 6, and 8 djinn classes are what are used. Unlike Base classes, only one Physical psynergy per fighter. It DOES upgrade, though, at the 6-djinn class.

For Tri-element classes, they only go up the first stage. IF that. An alternative is that they don't go up at all, but rather have added effects so that psynergy is at least considered (such as, may cause poison, sleep, delude, lowers defense, etc...), which is something that I tend to lean towards. Their main focus is stats, though.

For Item Classes, it honestly depends on the item. They're as unique as the items themselves, so they don't really follow the same rules as non-item classes. Basically, how the item class is approached depends on the item class itself, you can't just group them together. Some may be more physical based, some more magical based, and some are just plain out there.

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PostSubject: Re: Recommendations for a Strategy Version.   Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:51 am

Role I've seen your idea for psynergy staggering brfore on gamefaqs. My problem with it is the level curve for this game is to low (game ends lvl 35-45) though I will be changing that in my hack. I have been working on implementing it though and it is very effective.

Another thing to take into account besides number of elements controlled is the type of class. I see three types of classes: Fighter, Mage, And Support. Fighters relying on wepon unleashes and EPAs for damage. Mages relying on ERAs and items for damage and healing. Support uses status attacks, (de)buffs, and other support psynergy (defence spell I making).

When balancing classes keep mind what role said about number of element controlled and my idea on types. Try to figure out which one (or two) of these thay fit in and balance/critique to that).

ie. Samurai is a Fighter and Supporter due to its great EPAs and offensive stats along with 3 sets of stat buffs. I think samurai should just be powered down little to be supporter but keep the survivability of fighter. I propose weakening it's EPA by removing quick strike, setting Helm splitter to 70% (or lower) damage while keeping chance of death. Then lowering its attack bonus by 10%.
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PostSubject: Re: Recommendations for a Strategy Version.   Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:29 am

Even though the curve is low, remember that weaker 2nd-rank psynergy is STILL weaker than some of the stronger 1st-rank psynergy. Tremor should NEVER be stronger than Grand Gaia, or heck, arguably even it's upgraded base, Terra, for that matter. So while you lose the weakest of the weak, you still get psynergy as norm. In the end, you should probably have at least Grand Tremor by the time you hit endgame. Basically, stagger in spells according to power, and sure, while the weaker groups have power levels that are higher than the max of the base, this is not the case for stronger psynergies, such as Gaia. Stagger Terra in before Grand Gaia, since you need to stagger things in a way so that even if the stronger spells are overruled by class, you still have a spell of comparable power at the ready.

After all, if you're going by the level that spells are learned, notice how freaking early you learn Quake Sphere. And all the quake like, for that matter. You'll keep learning it quickly, and although it won't be uber in terms of power, you'll at least be able to have some stronger spells staggered in. Try testing my idea before you just plain write it off.


Now, there's actually just two types of classes, Physical and Magical. Or, Fighter and Mage as they're commonly called. There is no other type. Rather, you also have: Attack, Support, Recovery, and Balance.

Mia is an example of a Recovery Mage, Ivan's a mix of an Attack and Support Mage (while Garet's class would be an Attack/Support Fighter). Isaac's a Balanced Fighter, then you have the Samurai, which is a Support Fighter, Ninja, which is an Attack Fighter, Paladin, which is a Recovery Fighter...

Do you get it yet? There's the physical and magical specialization, and then Attack, Support, and Recovery (and the balance of the three) is a SEPARATE classification. Basically, Fighter vs Mage looks at STATS, and Attack vs Support vs Recovery looks at Psynergy groups. Simple as that.

So, when I look at what you're doing to samurai... I'm gonna say that you're probably doing it wrong. The stat boosts were okay, but the effects weren't likely to come until next turn due to the samurai's speed being lower. What's more, you're going to lower its attack and rid it of the only really useful skill that it has. I think that's a bad move. There's other things that can do that don't make the class totally useless. Heck, look at what you are doing to helm splitter. It's already a lame version of Annihilation, which is BY FAR much better than it. And now you're making it worse than Backstab?! Are you mad?

Nerfing a class is NOT the same as balancing it. If you went ahead and did that, it'd go from a great class to "don't even bother, just use Ninja". You want each class to have PROS as well as cons, and I don't see just stats alone making up for the pros, especially if you rebalanced weapons and unleashes. The only reason the Master and Ronin were so broken was because of the extreme boost to unleashes that the attack stat bonus gave you. If you balance those, then suddenly they lose a LOT of the power that they had. Remember, don't base your rebalancing on how it was in the old game, base it on how it's going to be in your hack. Without the brokenness of unleashes, you may find that by weakening and/or removing its EPAs, you cripple the class beyond redemption.


Now, DON'T take this as an attack on you and your ideas. Since it's not. But rather, I'm calling it as I see it. And what I see is that you're trying to balance the classes without looking at the effects of balancing other things, like weapons, unleashes, and armor.

Edit: Here's an example that I whipped up off the top of my head.

01 - Cure (c70, 1)
02 - Quake (b12, 3)
04 - Earthquake (b35, 5)
06 - Spire (b40, 1)
07 - Gaia (b40, 3)
10 - Cure Well (c150, 1)
13 - Ragnarok (a35, 1)
14 - Quake Sphere (b65, 7)
19 - Revive (Revive to 25%, 1)
20 - Clay Spire (b85, 3)
24 - Mother Gaia (b100, 5)
25 - Tremor (b105, 3)
26 - Potent Cure (c300, 1)
27 - Odyssey (a95, 1)
30 - High Tremor (b120, 5)
35 - High Revive (Revive to 50%, 1) (@ Slayer)
40 - Grand Tremor (b150, 7)
41 - Laevateinn (a135, 1)
42 - Stone Spire (b160, 3)
46 - Slag (180, 1)
47 - Terra (180, 3)
54 - Grand Gaia (b200, 5)
58 - Slag Fall (b240, 3)
63 - High Terra (b300, 5)
70 - Iliad (a200, 1)
72 - Slag Rain (b390, 3)
88 - Grand Terra (b480, 5)

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Recommendations for a Strategy Version.
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