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Charon the Ferryman
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PostSubject: Community Hack?   Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:38 pm

You know, I was going through the GS ideas in the General Golden Sun section, and I was thinking to myself, "We got some really good ideas!". Don't you think that it would be better if we could use these ideas together rather than to make competing hacks?

I was thinking, we could each hack different sections, then patch it all up together into one big patch. Of course, we can't touch any other areas, but we could communicate with eachother to add new ideas in certain areas.

One thing's for certain - we would need to use the same exact copy of GS:TLA.

If we could really get this going, we might even be able to gain Atrius's support in areas harder to hack, such as graphics and scripts (although we should leave him to producing the editor, heh heh heh).

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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:53 pm

That could work and it would be nice (unless someone changes something that someone didn't like and start a(n) argument/fight). I'm up for it ;)
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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:27 am

It would be difficult to make sure people don't get their patches conflicting with the others. They need to keep an original copy of TLA, one where only what they're editing is changed, and a separate copy if they want one with all the patches combined. Hmm... Perhaps I could slap together a tool that can apply multiple patches to a ROM at a single time, and detect if there are any conflicts between them.

Aside from the technical concerns do you plan on creating a whole new story, or just altering TLA?
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PostSubject: Why not Group Leader?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:38 am

Well, you know we could do it the Group Leader way.


For example, Charon could be our group leader, we all could discuss what we think she should do inthe editor, she will use the ideas that fit best... Basically group leader does all the editing and patches it, ad yet gives credit to others who gave their idea?

Although, your way is good for surprising everyone if intended....
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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:00 pm

That's a nice idea Charleysdrpepper, especially for me, because I do not have access to the editor, considering the fact that I am using a Mac.
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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:44 pm

Atrius wrote:
It would be difficult to make sure people don't get their patches conflicting with the others. They need to keep an original copy of TLA, one where only what they're editing is changed, and a separate copy if they want one with all the patches combined. Hmm... Perhaps I could slap together a tool that can apply multiple patches to a ROM at a single time, and detect if there are any conflicts between them.

Aside from the technical concerns do you plan on creating a whole new story, or just altering TLA?
Probably re-writing everything. A multiple patcher would be very useful - I was thinking about such problems today (especially with music hacking and other things requiring repointing), although for the problem with the "separate TLA's" I just keep the original zip file so I can decompress it whenever.

Quote :
Well, you know we could do it the Group Leader way.


For
example, Charon could be our group leader, we all could discuss what we
think she should do inthe editor, she will use the ideas that fit
best... Basically group leader does all the editing and patches it, ad
yet gives credit to others who gave their idea?

Although, your way is good for surprising everyone if intended....
It sounds good on paper, but it would be difficult because that would take up a huge amount of time to whoever is assigned leader. If Atrius makes a multi-patcher, we really wouldn't need it.

Although, with the current things we can change now, they all seem to be arguments that don't require repointing, so I doubt we would have huge issues until release 3 (even with music hacking)... unless I'm missing something.

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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:52 pm

Charon the Ferryman wrote:
You know, I was going through the GS ideas in the General Golden Sun section, and I was thinking to myself, "We got some really good ideas!". Don't you think that it would be better if we could use these ideas together rather than to make competing hacks?

I was thinking, we could each hack different sections, then patch it all up together into one big patch. Of course, we can't touch any other areas, but we could communicate with eachother to add new ideas in certain areas.
Well, that's basically the point behind my GSDG topics! ^-^

Basically, to share information for everyone to use if they want some ideas for their hacks.

However, as for the community hack... I see some potential, but we'll have to make sure everyone's on the same page. For example, I REFUSE to partake in it if we're gonna be turning it into a steampunk game or something, as it's supposed to be traditional fantasy. We'll also need to keep joke and cameo weapons and the like from being in the game... After all, what we put in needs to fit the general story/theme. No putting in a Hylean Shield if it's not a Zelda game, for example.


So, while we're on the topic... IF we do this, who's gonna do the story? Assuming that the goal is to not just rebalance GS2, but to make our own doujin game with the editor, we'll need a story, and someone will need to write it.

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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:14 pm

You're forgetting that since my guns are elemental, they CANNOT be powered by gun powder. Besides, they use Psynergy. Final Fantasy is considered traditional fantasy, yet it has guns. Also, they already have cannons in GS. I understand if you don't want guns to be the main focus. And we need to keep cameo items to a minimum. Maybe not 0, but still very few. Maybe at most one from each Nintendo series?
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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:22 pm

...No, I'm just saying I won't work on a steampunk game. I think steampunk is overrated. I don't think I actually referenced your guns at all. In fact, to me, they seem more like the Magic Guns you'd see in Negima - they fire spells, not bullets. Basically, they seem like they're multiple-use elemental items - use a Seed Gun for a "May break when used" effect of the Bramble Seed, rather than a single-use only. May Break When Used referencing how many charges it has - when out of charges, it'd "break", and you'd have to go get the "ammo" refilled by "repairing" it.

And FF hasn't been traditional fantasy since FF7.

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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:24 pm

I agree with cameos, but a big issue is our 8 character limit for the party. I don't think cameos should be inserted with the party, but rather utilized in events, similar to Atrius's script hack.

We can throw around some ideas in the GS DG section (and if you guys want, I can make that a separate planning section hee hee).

We're going to either need one person writing a story or a lot of people spreading ideas, with one "head master" of sorts.

Steampunk... I don't mind if it's 1-3 weapons, but not a full out class... considering, for example, Ankhs are very similar to staves/rods...

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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:26 pm

@Charon: Well, is anyone other than me working on a story? We could collaborate, and use characters that all the people working on the game design/approve as the story's characters...

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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:41 pm

I currently have ideas for a cast, as well as a series of events.

For example, a cast for the first part of the game (I'll post basic sketches tomorrow):
Jason - Venus adept; 18 yrs old,
Karon - Mars adept; 16 yrs old,
Mica - Jupiter adept; 19 yrs old, (note, her appearance is bird-like because of a stone from Air's Rock's center room that was attached to her head when young - Jupiter adepts are an extinct race at this point in time, so this is the only way to become a Jupiter adept)
Tori - Mercury adept; 17 yrs old,

Basic synopsis:
50 years later...

Turns out that the lighthouses were only a setup, and the promise of alchemy's release actually lead Weyard to impending doom as Alex's race of "semi-humans" of the Anemos begins to take over (this is why Alex's psynergies are very strange in comparison to Mia's and Picard's). The lighthouses did not direct power across the world, rather transfered it to the moon, thus making their psynergy grow many times.

The human race doesn't know this however and keep living as they did before, not realizing that they were just pawns of the Anemos.

Until...

Jason travels to Venus lighthouse and encounters Alex, in which he has a short battle ending in defeat, and begins to drift away with Mica, who was investigating its archeology, and Karon, who was accompanying Jason at the time.

Afterwards they aim to shut down and destroy the lighthouses, and use the mystic ship to rise to the Anemos and defeat Alex.

(More to be added later)

Also, I was thinking that if we could possibly hack how many people join your party at a time, we could have the second party join gradually rather than all at once, because under most circumstances that wouldn't make much sense (although in context with TLA's plot it does)

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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:57 pm

Sure, why not? I am in for the idea too. By the way, would each person get a separate section, or would multiple people be sharing sections?

Have a nice day.

Wait, I thought Alex was a member of the Mercury Tribe, unless he switched sides? Anyway, I like that storyline.
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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:02 pm

Most likely we will have individual sections.

Well, if he's a semi-human Anemos, he could pretend to be a Mercury adept easily.

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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:10 pm

Oh yeah, I never thought of that. Well, I like the idea. So, are these characters in any way related to the heros of the last game? Also, is the second party (if there is one) going to join the group of four to be a group of eight, or will each member join separately?

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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:44 pm

Here's what I propose... how about everyone gets together, proposes a character and their background, then we vote on which 8 characters to use?

We'll need a thread for each element, and allow people to vote for up to two different people. Then, once we get our COMMUNITY CREATED AND AGREED UPON characters, the storyline people can take them and build a story around it (with a few creative liberties on the characters themselves, if needed)? I mean, if we all just use a set of characters that a single person made, then it kinda defeats the whole community feel. Same with the whole 'single story-writer'... It's why I asked if there's anyone else, so that it can be a collaboration.

If we're gonna be serious about this, though, it'll need its own subforum or something, so we can put all the topics there. I mean, if it's a community wide effort, it should count as its 'own game' in the series, rather than just being under General Golden Sun...

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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:00 pm

Alright, I just threw my ideas out there for them to be known, not for them to be enforced

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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:12 pm

Cameos can be a nice thing so long as they're subtle. I'd even say my little cut scene could be taking it too far. Things like Masked Felix appearing at the Inn in Vale at the beginning of the game, Garet's scene where he knocks the support beam down in Altin Mine, and Douse creating snow in Prox are good things to look at. So subtle that many people never notice them.

Unless you can think of a good way to tie it into the story I don't think it would be a good idea to combine a second team of 4 people into the first all at one time. I found it somewhat hard to care about Isaac's team in TLA after I spent so long with Felix's, and they all joined at the exact same time with little to no extra character development in the second game. Hmm... An idea though, it could be possible to have separate parties during different parts in the game, and switch between them every so often when the story calls for it.


Another thing possibly worth noting is that I have dabbled in creating custom Golden Sun sprites.

It may not exactly match Golden Sun's style, but hopefully it's convincing enough.


I wish Maxipower were more active here, he'd probably be interested in this.
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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:58 pm

Yeah, if we do have cameos, they should be more in the form of shout-outs to anything. If someone is well-versed in the game we're referencing, they'll get it, but if not, it shouldn't subtract from the experience.

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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:39 am

This Idea sounds like alot fun, I defiantely will help out. Are you planning on making an entirely new set classes or rebalancing the old ones? I would suggest if you plan on doing 8 party members have 4 human adepts and 4 lycanthrope (shape shiffted) adepts.
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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:40 pm

Oh yeah, I like the idea of shape-shifting adepts.

Anyway, I have a minor idea for a cameo idea (not appearance, but idea). I suppose this could be both a Zelda and Golden Sun cameo... A Trading Mini-quest. Basically, this is like the one to get Catastrophe, but much longer. You could probably throw in one of the mushrooms that are already in the game, and maybe change the turtle into a bird. Basically, it is like extending something that is in the game, but has minor, subtle Zelda references (the mushroom and the bird should be easy to remember for some people).

Also, I think (if we have not already) we should start a discussions topic.

Have a nice day.
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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:11 pm

Mushrooms are kind of a Mario cameo, but birds??? I don't really get it. I've never been much of a Zelda fan though. Are you referencing the bird that Link summons when he uses the Ocarina of Wind in Minish Cap?
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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:54 pm

Nope. Actually, I think I should tell you. The Mushroom (this one) is a reference to the Mushroom that is given to you in the Lost Woods, and the bird is a reference to the Cuccoo(s) that you can get during the trading Mini-quest.

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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:09 pm

Ehic wrote:
This Idea sounds like alot fun, I defiantely will help out. Are you planning on making an entirely new set classes or rebalancing the old ones? I would suggest if you plan on doing 8 party members have 4 human adepts and 4 lycanthrope (shape shiffted) adepts.
I don't really agree with this bit. Choose one or the other - weapons or claws. If you try to do too much at once, you go from a great concept to a game made of suck.

Here's what I say - either we go with 8 humans, or 8 lycanthropes. Though I PREFER to work with humans, since I don't dislike how lycans are handled in Golden Sun are handled unlike MOST media (must be born as one, it's not some stupid disease), I'm willing to go that route if, and only if, we're going full-lycan.

Why? Because they'll have two totally different weapon types. I think we shouldn't have more than eight, the ones already present within the golden sun series - Axes, Spears (pretty much every guard has one), Long Swords, Light Blades, Scythes (see: Prox Chicks), Maces, Staffs, and Ankhs. This is why they're the eight weapons that I focused on in the weapon balancing - they're already present. Things such as claws, beaks, talons, etc, the weapons that IIRC were mentioned in Garoh as the weapons of choice for lycans, would not only be difficult to implement in terms of sprites, but if used in conjunction with human weapons, we may find ourselves unable to include everything unless we actually REMOVE some human weapon types (for example - restrict human weapons to Axes, Long Swords, Maces, and Staffs). Not to mention the chaos about which weapons and armor should be made for lycan use. It involves a lot more work, and in my opinion, if both types are included, it will only serve to water down the final result.


So yeah, one or the other, NOT both.

We should be having new classes, but they should not yet be paired with characters. Rather, instead of pairing a character with a class, pair them with a build. This does NOT mean that each character should have their own strange combo of equipment types - Rather, I think we should keep it somewhat simple... 8 Characters, 4 Core Builds.

Sure, you can modify a build for a character...

If Isaac could use Spears, Long Swords, Light Blades, and Scythes
and Garet used Axes, Long Swords, Light Blades, and Maces

And you wanted to make Felix different from Isaac, but thought that Scythes fit him more than Maces due to his Anti-hero status, then you could give him Axes, Long Swords, Light Blades, and Scythes...
Which would leave piers with Spears, Long Swords, Light Blades, and Maces.

Swapping out a pair of weapons for a character is okay, so long as you keep the CORE of the build in tact... Since the other four characters have mage builds, and you don't want things to get chaotic, it's best if you don't do something crazy like giving Felix Axes, Spears, Maces, and Scythes, which is a totally new build in and of itself.

Most importantly, we need BALANCE in the builds we use. 2 fighters and 2 mages in each team. But you should have a balanced number of fighters who can equip a certain type of weapon. I say either 2, or all 4. Don't give three of them Axes, and leave the last guy out.

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PostSubject: Re: Community Hack?   Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:18 pm

@Role - I think 4 lycanthanropes is a bit excessive myself. The problem resides with the fact that wolves are most likely going to be tied with Venus, but there's no unique base class for such, so we'd have some really painful djinn combinations to deal with - I've already had this in trying to add a bird class (Fledgling) so for it to work without some serious class resetup, the Jupiter adepts can only exist through a vigourous transformation upon their own bodies.

A dragon or fish based "animal-human" doesn't have this issue, due to Jenna and Piers having unique base classes.

The weapons issue - they could easily have an exclusive weapon to themselves, but lycanthanropes can still hold things, meaning they can hold weapons as well. Same would apply to bird humans - they would still have fingers (and some games and other works of creativity have done this, but they'd be covered in feathers, and they'd have beaks and talons. Birds would be the most difficult to transfer to the human anatomy, but looks like it's a problem that isn't difficult to solve.

(of course, feel free to add more or suggest something better - this is the community hack, after all)

Good ideas, everyone, especially the "changing parties ideas" from Atrius and the extended trade game from Salanewt.

Say, can you make it so that you gradually gain a back party throughout the story, or is it 100% necessary to have it that they come all at once? That can really limit story ideas, unfortunately.

You know, I was thinking again... trading reminded me of the trade system from several other games (the one that comes to mind is SIII, which in one town you can buy a trading item for about 70 potch and sell it in another for over 10000). Now while we probably couldn't do that much of a difference, we could possibly create a patch that multiplies certain prices by several random values from .5 to 3. Assuming that 5 values are chosen, we could use the item's index number divided by 5, then take it's remainder to determine which items will receive what boost. It would give the player more of an incentive for buying certain goods, such as herbs, nuts and vials, when in the original game they were used mainly as "emergency healing items".

We could all submit a single, subtle cameo of our own. I was thinking a random Lloyd in a certain town would be pretty funny for those who catch him.

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